Daily Times: The impression seems to be slowly gaining ground that your control of the party founded by your distinguished father and led through thick and thin by you has weakened. There are some who say you have lost control of the party. Is this correct?

Benazir Bhutto: Yes, some people are under the impression that my control of the Party weakens. I have a different view: the parliamentary party broke because of illegal and criminal methods against elected parliamentarians. They were threatened and offered bribes. The weak ones collapsed. The strong are in the field. In fact, I see the general elections as evidence that the PPP remains strong. Despite the rigging, it emerged with the largest number of votes and could have formed the government in the center. The assembly session was unconstitutionally postponed to create the Nawabzada group. Making yesterday's “criminals” into today's “ministers” simply proves how weak and desperate the ruling Generals are.

Daily Times: Many of your supporters and admirers believe that may not be able to discipline the party unless you return to Pakistan . You have often spoken about going back to take charge of the party. Is that still an option?

Benazir Bhutto: Yes, many people think that if I went back to Pakistan , the Party would be more disciplined. They could be right although I remember the defections when Jam Sadiq was in power and when Quaid-e-Awam was in prison. I did want to go back to contest the elections. When I was stopped from contesting, I changed my plans. I cherish the freedom and time I have now to promote my party's point of view. Moreover, I see my exile as a powerful indictment of a dictatorship that is afraid to allow its competitors free play.

Daily Times: If you can't return to Pakistan immediately, would you consider giving up the leadership of the party and allowing one of your senior lieutenants to take over through internal party elections?

Benazir Bhutto: I want to go back immediately. I miss my home. But if I have to stay in exile as long as Ayotullah Khomeni did, I am prepared to make that sacrifice. I am determined to support and lead the democratisation of Pakistan . For me democratisation is the tool to liberate the people of Pakistan from poverty, backwardness and ignorance. Its wrong that I would give up the people of Pakistan simply because I was forced into exile. I recall how the Holy Prophet (PBUH) left Mecca from Madina. I refused the offers of the regime to free my husband in exchange for my announcing that I was quitting politics for five years. This caused much suffering for my husband, my little children and myself. I bear the pain, the suffering and the sacrifice because I believe in a cause.

Daily Times: What in your opinion led to the defections from Southern Punjab . Some of those who left the party had a long history of sacrifice and commitment to the party through very difficult times. This is the first time since the party was founded that such a development has taken place. What is your explanation for what happened?

Benazir Bhutto: In my view, the defectors were unable to bear the pressure of NAB and the threat of going to prison or having their textile, sugar and other mills adversely affected through public sector loaning methods. In conscience they could have resigned from the Party. They keep saying that they defected to enable me to return to Pakistan . The people are waiting to see them deliver.

Daily Times: Is it true that since you were willing to make a deal with the General - though it did not come about in the end for various reasons - those who defected felt that if they too made a deal it would be perfectly in order and in keeping with the “pragmatic” political strategy of their leader? They did not think they were losing any moral ground if they walked across the aisle. Do you agree?

Benazir Bhutto: I am unable to speak for the defectors. As for the Party under my leadership, I am unwilling to see an understanding with the Generals based on a greed for power. An understanding needs to be based on the democratic, fundamental human rights and pro-people policies which are the shining principles that the PPP has always upheld.

Daily Times: One commentator (Ejaz Haider of Daily Times) has written, “The issue really is not whether Benazir Bhutto should have tried to remote control the party or insisted on retaining her centrality to any deal. The issue really is whether she was in a position to do so effectively without putting the political fortunes of the party at risk. It is here that she failed. Not only has she failed to get a deal for herself, her inability to read the situation may have also worked against the larger interests of the party.” Do you agree?

Benazir Bhutto: It is true that I refused a deal for myself. I was offered that Senator Zardari would be freed if I said that I would stay in exile for five years. I want Asif free but I was unable to voluntarily leave the people of Pakistan for his freedom. My father gave his life and did not leave the people. I am bound by that legacy. I can be forcibly kept in exile for five or fifty years, that's one thing. Its quite another for me to abandon the people. The image of the PPP is burnt in the psyche of history as a Party that has the courage to defy military dictatorship. To collude with a military dictator for a few ministries is tantamount to a greed for power. To negotiate on the basis of the democratic, human rights and economic rights of the people is another. Parliaments come and go. The Party strength is what enables the parliamentarians to win. Its wrong when some say that determination works against the larger interests of the Party. The larger interest of the Party is to serve its constituents and not oneself for some ministries in a country where parliaments come and go quickly.

Daily Times: You still have not expelled the defectors from the party. They, on their part, continue to proclaim you as their “Quaid”? This has mystified many. What are your comments?

Benazir Bhutto: The defectors were expelled from the Party Central Executive Committee (CEC) as well as suspended from its basic membership. The defectors must have their own reasons for proclaiming me their Quaid. Perhaps they think that they can influence Musharraf into ending his human rights violations of the PPP. If so, they have taken a big risk. I doubt that Musharraf has the courage to allow dictatorship's opponents the freedom to air their views equitably.

Daily Times: Most political analysts believe that the MMA has been playing a clever political game: gaining popularity by offering to accept Gen. Musharraf as the constitutional President - as long as he gives up the post of COAS - and not allowing Jamali's government to fall. Thus the MMA is managing to keep Musharraf under pressure and limited democracy alive. Do you agree?

Benazir Bhutto: The MMA is in a different boat than the PPP. They are opponents of the regime and they are allowed to be opponents. PPP is stopped from opposing dictatorship through a series of hurdles that are put in its place.

Daily Times: In view of the evolving indifference of the United States towards Pakistan that is causing great hardship and suffering to the Pakistanis residing in America or planning to visit, do you think your uncritical posture towards America is of any help to you in or outside Pakistan?

Benazir Bhutto: I agree that great hardship is caused to the Pakistani people through the new Immigration and Naturalisation Service (INS) system. I wrote to President Bush about reviewing that decision given that Islamabad is a key member of the alliance against terror. I am critical of some of the US policies, including support to Musharraf's dictatorship. I support the pluralism and tolerance that exists in America and want to see our own people have the same tolerance and pluralism. I oppose the talibinisation of Pakistan and if people think that is pro-American, they are free to do so. I see Talibinisation of Pakistan as a threat to the dream of Quaid-e-Azam to have a federal, democratic and egalitarian structure where people have free choices.

Daily Times: The war on “global terrorism” seems to be a war without end. Then there are the escalating preparations by the US for an invasion of Iraq . Would you frankly say how you view this situation?

Benazir Bhutto: I prefer a political solution to the issues relating to Iraq . Had I been leading the government, I would have tried to bring about a political resolution of the issue.

Daily Times: Some analysts believe that Gen. Musharraf has played a masterly game, outwitting all politicians. Any comments?

Benazir Bhutto: I see General Musharraf as a short-sighted General who failed to transform opportunities arising due to external considerations to his own benefit or the benefit of his nation. He blew the chance to have Pakistan 's loans written off. He blew the chance to have an accommodation with political leaders that could have led to the restoration of the democratic process. Bob Woodward's book is a glimpse into Musharraf's weak leadership qualities. When asked to join the “War Against Terror,” Musharraf agreed immediately without asking for a political price. He will go down in history as just another dictator - a far cry from his ambition to become an Ataturk.

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